I too tithed faithfully for many years only to see the money wasted on stupid spending building empires to themselves. God took the scales of my eyes almost four years ago and began to allow me to see that the way we “do” church has gotten way off base. Check out Frank Viola and George Barna’s book “Pagan Christianity”.

Don’t know anything about Student Awakening nor The Ramp but do know quite a bit about Bill Johnson. I was asked to look into his School of Supernatural Healing and attended one session. I felt the present of evil there and had to leave. I believe that Bill Johnson is spreading false and dangerous gospel. (Why would he charge $7,000 to buy the dvd set so you too can start your own school?). You can’t teach people how to use spiritual gifts. God gives us gifts to benefit the body of Christ and we don’t need someone profiting off of them.

Bill Johnson, along with the false prophet, Larry Joyner of Morningstar Church, were the original promoters of Todd Bentley (the Lakeland Revival). As you probably know, Todd was an out of control ranter who eventually was found to be cheating on his wife during his spectacle in Florida while she stayed home with their child. He divorced his wife and is now married to his mistress.

Rather than condemn Bentley and insist he return to his wife, Johnson and Joyner “counseled” Bentley in order to restore his ministry. Because they were his early supporters Johnson and Joyner realized that in order to validate their own ministries, they couldn’t allow Bentley to be exposed as a fraud.

Remember that the Bible warns us of false prophets and false signs and wonders. Yes, even the enemy can perform miracles, but he does them to pull us away from Jesus.

I avoid all the signs and wonders folks out there, but believe in the operation of all the gifts when used biblically and to edify the body of Christ. After over 40 years as follower of Jesus, I have seen quite a bit. The enemy is alive and well and has many people deceived into thinking they are true Christians when in fact they are going to hell. This is a strong statement, but the Lord revealed this to me very specifically about three years ago.

Sorry for the long post, but Michele I sense that you God has been “pricking” your heart about how you practice religion. Religion is man’s creation, not God’s. Seek God’s presence in all that you do. Focus on Him and Him alone. It is no coincidence that you got on this site and this post after all active comments had ended some months ago and that I happened to log of today despite my interenet being down (I was able to latch on to a neighbors signal).

Shed yourself of the guilt ridden man made system of Christianity. Seek out a body of believers who make Jesus the central point of their time together.

May God bless you and your family.

Thank you so much for your response. And guess what? We have all of Jason Upton’s cds. I love him. I love prophetic worship as well. It has been a struggle, indeed. I think about the thousands I have given to the church and we were turned away and left to be homeless by our former home church (a mega church) after I had tithed to them faithfully.

Now, while we are talking about this. What are your thoughts on the Student Awakening at IHOP in Kansas City? And any thoughts on Bill Johnson? The Ramp in Hamilton, Alabama? I’m just wondering.

Your mother is right on point. If you have a relationship with Jesus, then just pray and listen to Him. He will tell exactly WHAT to give and WHERE or WHOM to give it to. You’ll be surprised to He probably won’t tell you to give it your church.

God does not “punish” us for the times we stumble in our walk. If He did, I think many of us would be in a constant state of punishment. What He does do is to allow us to suffer the consequences of our actions. You cannot earn God’s blessings, nor can you earn his punishment. I think the Lord that I don’t get what I deserve because that would mean eternal torment in hell when I die.

Praise Jesus for the freedom He gives us. If you get a chance, listen to a song called “Freedom” by Jason Upton.

I have given and more often than not it is without a glad and cheerful heart. It is out of fear of what God will do to us if I don’t give. I even gave away furniture, dishes, clothes. Have given tons of time in volunteer time. I give, give and give. But my son does without. We really struggle. My car needs work. It’s a vicious cycle.

So, then my former Mother-in-law says, have you thought about Grace Giving? I said, what is that? She said, it is only giving what God tells you to give. I guess I do that with giving things away and giving over the 10%, huh?

So, now, I see your blog and wonder even more, have I been giving out of sheer legalism? With a spirit of religion in my heart? Is that why we struggle so much?

Oh what to do. Religion has ruined me. Jesus has saved me. And as a single Mom, I have to make sure my son has his needs met. And the church I gave all of this money to? Well, when I had pneumonia for a month and my son had two surgeries in the same month, I had one woman dry our clothes for us when my dryer broke. The rest of the church never came by. I often wonder, why do I give all of this tithe to these churches when they could really care less about the widow and the orphan?

Just my thoughts on the subject.

I really think this issue is crucial to churches. Like the elephant in the room that no one talks about. After reading all of the comments it seems obvious to me that the intent of each is the similar, only the direction in which it is delivered differs. I feel the same about the government requiring my tax dollars to fund social programs I may not agree with. If this were not required (as I do not give this with a cheerful heart) the ability to support the social programs you feel lead to would be greatly increased. When the message of a required tithe to the church is given, it lends the same feeling as when the government tells me they are better at deciding where my money goes than I am.

Thank you for bringing up this issue. It has been wonderful to read other opinions on the topic.

You are a hard working, dedicated, tireless worker for the Lord, and I totally respect that in you. I apologize and ask your forgiveness if I came across patronizing. That was the last thing on my mind.

My grandfather, a mighty man of God, was a Baptist minister in a little town in Kentucky for over 50 years, a graduate of Southern Theological Seminary, and he never tired of sharing Jesus with others. One of my prized possessions is a letter he sent me when I accepted the Jesus as my Lord in 1967. My older brother is an ordained minister and just about as conservative as they come. He saw many years ago the folly of many of our mand made traditions that have been handed down for so long that we view them as doctrine. For the last seven years he has been in a house church where all are equal and people are allowed to use their gifts as God directs. I was raised in a wonderful Christian home and learned about Jesus by watching my parents. As an adult, I fell away from the Lord, but He never abandoned me and eventually the Chief Shepherd brought me back to His flock. Since then, I have served in childrens’ ministry, headed up a $15 mil. building program for an IC, been an elder,helped plant two instituional churches, and taught at Calvary Bible College.

I bring all this up to show you that the roots of my faith run very deep and I don’t take what I say lightly. It has been a journey of discovery for me over the last three years and I’m not some flake who has been burned by the IC and now seek revenge (there are those like that out there). My life revolves 24/7 around the person of Jesus Christ like it never has before. I’m hoping to show you that I didn’t just fall off the turnip truck so to speak. My heart goes out to you.

Luther and Calvin did many great things for the Lord, but they too were flawed men (Luther persecuted and had killed many Anabaptists for example). Luther came out of the Roman Catholic system and brought some of that baggage with him. He replaced the centerpiece of the Catholic service, communion, with the Protestant sermon. The system he instituted was still a one man up, one man down system; separating believers in two classes, clergy and laity, defying the “priesthood of all believers”.

I don’t want to get into a theological debate and argue the nuances of the Greek language. We would be here all year and never take one step forward. My intent is to allow God to speak through me to your heart. I am a messenger, not a salesman. You say you want to reform the institutional church system. That is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. You can’t keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. That is what so many pastors are doing. They bring in a new program, shuffle things around a bit here and there; but really is the same old candy bar, just in a different wrapper.

Why is it that millions and millions of Christians are leaving the IC for a simpler expression of their role as the body of Christ? Pastors don’t like talking about it, but the facts bear this out. Churches are not growing, people are just moving from one church to another. Christians are not growing and maturing in their faith. Their spiritual muscles have become atrophied through non-use by becoming spectators every Sunday morning. It would be like the guy going to the gym to work out and just watching somebody else do all the exercises. He would never grow or benefit from that except maybe gain a better understanding of how to do the exercises.

David, you have such a heart for the Lord. Men like you really have more the heart of an apostle. With your experience and passion for the Lord, just imagine the number of small interactive house churches you could go out in your own city and plant. To me that is exciting. God will take care of you if you are faithful.

My intent is not to tear you down, but to encourage and to build you up. To edify you as a member of the body of believers. I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 51 and have been around Christianity a long time. If anything, my zeal, passion, and excitement for whatthe Lord is doing is at an all time high. I know what it means to take joy in my trials and tribulations. As a follower of Christ, I am honored the Lord would entrust me challenges that push me and allow me to grow.

You are my brother in Christ and I can only say my heart is with you, even if we disagree on certain minor matters. Our hearts are joined in the Lord and our spirits remain in unity through Jesus.

God bless you and your family.

My “burn-out” comes from idle Believers who expect the pastor to do everything. Then when he does something they don’t like, they turn on him. God calls pastors, and if you want to call it a man-made system, then you need to deal with the Apostle Paul, who appointed Timothy, Titus, and others (by any other title) to be pastors — gave them charge of a church or group of churches. If any man is to blame for the system, it would be Paul. What do you call a man who rejects God’s call, God’s appointment? You seem to honor such men as enlightened. But how can that be?

I know we’re off the tithing track, but I’m wondering if this doesn’t all fit together – that rejecting the tithe and rejecting pastoral ministry aren’t symptoms of something more. I understand that God didn’t intend for the pastor to be the sole minister in a church – and I’ve taught that for all of my ministry. I want God’s people to take seriously their own call, their own role as ministers of the Gospel.
I would blame it on a bad translations of the Bible – the KJV (sorry, but it is!). The KJV put a comma that simply isn’t there in the Greek. Eph. 4:12 (KJV) says the task of God-appointed ministers is “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ” That first comma isn’t there in the Greek. It should read, as it does in the NIV, “to prepare God’s people for works of service (or ministry), so that the body of Christ may be built up.” For 400 years, the Church at large operated on the idea that it was the pastors job to do “the work of the ministry”, when in point of fact, Paul intended to say that it was the pastor’s job simply (and it’s not so simple) to prepare God’s people for the work of ministry. THEY are to do it; HE is the teacher and coach. Big difference and a huge paradigm shift for the Church.
I’m sorry. I’m sure you don’t mean to sound patronizing, but you do. Please don’t assume that your reader (me) hasn’t studied church history, or hasn’t read the Church Fathers. I have several of Barna’s books. I respect him, but he’s not always right. I’m not trying to defend a “system”. I’m trying to reform it – in my little way, in my little place. But I will not abandon it. I don’t compare myself in any way with these great men, but Martin Luther did not abandon the Church. Even after excommunication, he considered himself loyal to the Church that rejected him, but more loyal to the Scriptures. John Wesley never abandoned the Anglican Church; he attempted to reform it from inside. Abandoning the “institutional” church doesn’t do the Church any good.
I would say more, but it’s Sunday morning. I need to lead my church family in worship and teach as God has taught me.

Please don’t take offense my brother, for none was intended. I am not criticizing the many godly, well intentioned men who serve in the position of pastor in a church. My gripe is with the “pastoral system” as I stated, not with the men therein. Does that make sense? The pastoral system is a man made system. The Greek word for pastor (poimen) only appears one time in the New Testament and we have created an entire industry and church system around it. It is the man made church system that we have today that stifles believes and turns them into pillars of stone sitting in pews. That is not the picture I get by reading 1st Corinthians and the picture painted of the churcher gathering where each is to bring something to share. Nowhere in the New Testament does it describe a pastoral system where a pastor is the do-all for everyone coming to church. That is why it doesnt’ work and why dedicated men like you get burned out. God never intended it to work that way.

I would encourage you to study church history and see where these customs and traditions really came from. A good start is “Pagan Christianity” by George Barna and Frank Viola that thoroughly researched many of our present church customs. The fact that there are days that you “hate” your job is an indication of the futility of this system.

Taking this discussion back to the tithe, of course Jesus never came out and stated the tithe was done away with. He also never said for us to stop stoning to death our disobedient children either, but we don’t do that anymore do we? I could go on and on with examples of the legal system for the Israelites, but you get my point. The system of the tithe was for the nation of Israel which was a theocracy and the tithe was their system of taxation. Most of us here are Gentiles and we don’t believe we have to circumcise if we don’t want to nor comply with the many other theocratic laws of Israel.

Have you ever taught about the tithe from Deutoronomy 14 as a pastor? If not, then why not, since that chapter has a whole lot more to say on the subject of tithing than that single verse in Malachai. I’ve sat in a lot of churches my entire life and heard many a sermon on tithing, but not once did I ever hear that chapter brought up. I found it on my own when I decided to research the issue so I could defend the practice of tithing. I was shocked to discover that plus much more on the subject that no pastor ever taught about. Preaching tithing is putting people into bondage. Jesus came to fulfill the law. He is the end, not the means.

David, I sense your frustration and your burnout. You are proceeding forth each day based on committment, but one day you will burn out. That is not good. There is a better way; not a perfect way, but a better way. I would encourage you to ask God to show this to you. Let go of the traditions you have hung onto all these years, they are pulling you down. Jesus is life my brother, not death. You have a heart of gold and are totally dedicated, but you are killing yourself with the burdens that are self imposed. Jesus said His yoke was easy and His burden was light. If that is true (and it certainly is) then you wouldn’t feel such a heavy burden. You don’t have to carry the cross back up to Calvary anymore. It is done. The price has been paid.

My heart goes out to you. If you could just begin to see God’s truth and what He really wants for His Bride, you will see things in a whole new light. Are you willing to take that first step?

Check out Frank Viola’s website http://www.ptmin.org. Here is an extensive article on that site regardign pastors: http://www.ptmin.org/straight.pdf.

I’ll stand in the gap with you David. My intent is not to destroy but to build up. I too used to be where you are today in your beliefs, but God has spoken to my heart and transformed me and allowed me to see way beyond what I was previously taught. My brother used to be an ordained Baptist minister. He too has seen the folly of the traditional insitutional church and for the last 7 years has been part of common fellowship of believers in his home where all are equals and only Jesus is in charge. I do understand and I just want you to see what the Lord has shown me. It is liberating and exciting.

You’re right about one thing, though, and that is that “people have become spectators instead of participants.” That is the bane of every pastor’s life, that people just sit there and do nothing about their faith, if they even have any. We have become a people with a “form of godliness”, but no power. Yes, we should listen to the Holy Spirit – key word: SHOULD! But so many don’t. And could it not be that your Pastor is sometimes “the voice of the Holy Spirit”? See Acts 10:44. It’s a terrifying responsibility to speak for God. As I said before, I’ve been doing this for over 28 years, and I’m still terrified to stand in the pulpit, knowing that I will be called to account for my teaching.

One thing that seems to be getting lost in this discussion is this: Please show me anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus countermanded the tithe. I know that he condemned legalistic, nit-picking tithing, “while neglecting justice and mercy.”

Where is the money to come from to fulfill Paul’s instruction in 1 Cor. 9:7-14? “The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.” To claim that asking God’s people to fulfill their obligations under God’s Word is akin to enslaving them is a radical misunderstanding of the Word. Yes, Jesus came to set us free – “from the law of sin and death”. But he also gave us commands, and called us to lives of obedience to the “law of the Spirit”. Freedom is not absolute. I do not call my people to obey me, but to obey Christ.

“What if in some remote tribe, with no other human contact, stumbled upon a Bible. They read it from cover to cover (Doug, does this include the Old Testament?), accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. What would their meetings look like? Would they have one man in charge called a pastor?” I answer, if they believed what they read, yes. God calls pastors. Would those folks tithe? Probably. This is not “man-made tradition”, but the Word of God.

I don’t mean to be argumentative, but every preacher loves to preach from that one little verse in Micah that says “don’t rob God of the tithes in the storehouse.” Yet, I have yet to hear any preacher teach from Deutoronomy 14 where it basically says to spend it on whatever your heart desires and rejoice before the Lord. It also says to remember the Levite, so I could guess that if someone wanted to twist things around, they could say that pastors are modern day Levites, but that makes no sense since you are a Levite by birth not by personal election. God doesn’t want us twisting His scriptures around to fit our own desires no matter how worthy the cause. God has never been one to teach us that the ends justify the means.

The point is that we need to be free. Jesus came to set us free. Every person is a member of the “priesthood of believers” as stated in Hebrews. The man made pastoral system that is in place today limits people and quiets the voice of the prophets and other saints. People become spectators instead of participants. Our meetings are all geared around one man. It is too easy for heresy to invade a church where only one man can speak the word of God. This is not to criticize the well meaning Godly men who have taken on the title of pastor, but a criticism of the system that perpetuates this unbiblical practice. It is time to let God’s people go. Many pastors are like modern day pharoes who enslave God’s people with fear and trembling and rule them with legalistic requirements. I don’t apologize for coming on strong here because it is the truth.

Here is how I put it to people. What if some remote tribe in a jungle, with no prior human contact, stumbled upon a Bible. They read it from cover to cover, accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. What would their meetings look like? Would they have one man in charge called a pastor? Would they require the tribe members to tithe? Come on folks, its that simple. These are easy answers. We have handed down man made traditions for centuries that have no basis in God’s word. Don’t you think its time to trust and let God’s people go?